[ptxdist] Docker rules

[ptxdist] Docker rules

[Mircea Ciocan]

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Hello everybody,

are there any official or unofficial rules to have docker container 
support build with PTXDist on aarch64 platforms or I have to painfully 
dissect the Yocto's virtualization layer ?

Any advice is appreciated.


Best regards,

Mircea




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Re: [ptxdist] Docker rules

[Alexander Dahl]

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Hello Mircea,

On Thu, Jan 27, 2022 at 05:37:01PM +0100, Mircea Ciocan wrote:
> are there any official or unofficial rules to have docker container support
> build with PTXDist on aarch64 platforms 

Do you mean running Docker containers on the target?  Or buildung a
ptxdist based BSP in a Docker container?  AFAIK there's neither one or
the other.

> or I have to painfully dissect the
> Yocto's virtualization layer ?

If you're looking for inspiration for Docker on the target, you might
as well checkout the buildroot project [1].  That is more or less
similar to ptxdist conceptually, and IIRC it has support for Docker on
the target.  Look out for package/docker* in their tree.

Greets
Alex

[1] https://www.buildroot.org/

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Re: [ptxdist] Docker rules

[Michael Olbrich]

Hi,

On Thu, Jan 27, 2022 at 06:22:28PM +0100, Alexander Dahl wrote:
> On Thu, Jan 27, 2022 at 05:37:01PM +0100, Mircea Ciocan wrote:
> > are there any official or unofficial rules to have docker container support
> > build with PTXDist on aarch64 platforms 
> 
> Do you mean running Docker containers on the target?  Or buildung a
> ptxdist based BSP in a Docker container?  AFAIK there's neither one or
> the other.

I don't know of any either.

The most important questions here is, what exactly do you want to achieve?

In my experience, Docker is mostly a buzzword that comes from the
management with the hope that everything will be magically better
afterwards. Without a clear understanding what problem should be solved.

So I would recommend that you look take a look at you problem and verify if
Docker or any other container manager is actually what you need.

I'm sure there are real use-cases out there where Docker is the right tool,
but I've yet to come in touch in one for PTXdist.
There is a reason why there are no Docker rules in PTXdist so far :-).

Regards.
Michael

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Re: [ptxdist] Docker rules

[Felix Mellmann]

On 28.01.22 12:01, Michael Olbrich wrote:
> Hi,
>
> On Thu, Jan 27, 2022 at 06:22:28PM +0100, Alexander Dahl wrote:
>> On Thu, Jan 27, 2022 at 05:37:01PM +0100, Mircea Ciocan wrote:
>>> are there any official or unofficial rules to have docker container support
>>> build with PTXDist on aarch64 platforms
>> Do you mean running Docker containers on the target?  Or buildung a
>> ptxdist based BSP in a Docker container?  AFAIK there's neither one or
>> the other.
> I don't know of any either.
>
> The most important questions here is, what exactly do you want to achieve?
>
> In my experience, Docker is mostly a buzzword that comes from the
> management with the hope that everything will be magically better
> afterwards. Without a clear understanding what problem should be solved.
Full acknowledge!
>
> So I would recommend that you look take a look at you problem and verify if
> Docker or any other container manager is actually what you need.
>
> I'm sure there are real use-cases out there where Docker is the right tool,
> but I've yet to come in touch in one for PTXdist.
> There is a reason why there are no Docker rules in PTXdist so far :-).

I think the other way round is a more common usecase - having 
Dockerfiles along with the PTXdist tarball which could be used to set up 
working environments out of PTXdist and the latest OSELAS toolchain. 
Every 2 years whenever there is a new Ubuntu LTS I need to set up a 
Dockerfile to maintain older releases, especially when the used PTXdist 
and OSELAS toolchain would not build anymore on the newer Ubuntu.

If someone is interested I could share my commonly used Dockerfile for 
this usecase.

>
> Regards.
> Michael
>

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Re: [ptxdist] Docker rules

[Felix Mellmann]

On 28.01.22 12:01, Michael Olbrich wrote:
> Hi,
>
> On Thu, Jan 27, 2022 at 06:22:28PM +0100, Alexander Dahl wrote:
>> On Thu, Jan 27, 2022 at 05:37:01PM +0100, Mircea Ciocan wrote:
>>> are there any official or unofficial rules to have docker container support
>>> build with PTXDist on aarch64 platforms
>> Do you mean running Docker containers on the target?  Or buildung a
>> ptxdist based BSP in a Docker container?  AFAIK there's neither one or
>> the other.
> I don't know of any either.
>
> The most important questions here is, what exactly do you want to achieve?
>
> In my experience, Docker is mostly a buzzword that comes from the
> management with the hope that everything will be magically better
> afterwards. Without a clear understanding what problem should be solved.
Full acknowledge!
>
> So I would recommend that you look take a look at you problem and verify if
> Docker or any other container manager is actually what you need.
>
> I'm sure there are real use-cases out there where Docker is the right tool,
> but I've yet to come in touch in one for PTXdist.
> There is a reason why there are no Docker rules in PTXdist so far :-).

I think the other way round is a more common usecase - having 
Dockerfiles along with the PTXdist tarball which could be used to set up 
working environments out of PTXdist and the latest OSELAS toolchain. 
Every 2 years whenever there is a new Ubuntu LTS I need to set up a 
Dockerfile to maintain older releases, especially when the used PTXdist 
and OSELAS toolchain would not build anymore on the newer Ubuntu.

If someone is interested I could share my commonly used Dockerfile for 
this usecase.
>
> Regards.
> Michael
>

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Re: [ptxdist] Docker rules

[Christian Melki]

If machine is powerful enough, I'd try running a lightweight distro 
image in QEMU, natively. QEMU is available in ptxdist an I have run 
system-emulations on ARM64 machines. The performance hit is not that bad 
nowdays. That way you can have (easier) access to all the modern 
infrastructure packages required for checking all the fancy buzzwords 
boxes. :)

I don't think embedded environment projects have the manpower or the 
interest to maintain functional packages of all the 
infrastructure-thingies that have exploded the last few years.

But all this depends on what you're trying to achieve, as Michael 
already pointed out.

My .02.
Regards,
Christian

On 1/28/22 12:01 PM, Michael Olbrich wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> On Thu, Jan 27, 2022 at 06:22:28PM +0100, Alexander Dahl wrote:
>> On Thu, Jan 27, 2022 at 05:37:01PM +0100, Mircea Ciocan wrote:
>>> are there any official or unofficial rules to have docker container support
>>> build with PTXDist on aarch64 platforms
>>
>> Do you mean running Docker containers on the target?  Or buildung a
>> ptxdist based BSP in a Docker container?  AFAIK there's neither one or
>> the other.
> 
> I don't know of any either.
> 
> The most important questions here is, what exactly do you want to achieve?
> 
> In my experience, Docker is mostly a buzzword that comes from the
> management with the hope that everything will be magically better
> afterwards. Without a clear understanding what problem should be solved.
> 
> So I would recommend that you look take a look at you problem and verify if
> Docker or any other container manager is actually what you need.
> 
> I'm sure there are real use-cases out there where Docker is the right tool,
> but I've yet to come in touch in one for PTXdist.
> There is a reason why there are no Docker rules in PTXdist so far :-).
> 
> Regards.
> Michael
> 

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Re: [ptxdist] Docker rules

[Mircea Ciocan]

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On 27.01.22 18:22, Alexander Dahl wrote:
> Hello Mircea,
>
> On Thu, Jan 27, 2022 at 05:37:01PM +0100, Mircea Ciocan wrote:
>> are there any official or unofficial rules to have docker container support
>> build with PTXDist on aarch64 platforms
> Do you mean running Docker containers on the target?  Or buildung a
> ptxdist based BSP in a Docker container?  AFAIK there's neither one or
> the other.
>
>> or I have to painfully dissect the
>> Yocto's virtualization layer ?
> If you're looking for inspiration for Docker on the target, you might
> as well checkout the buildroot project [1].  That is more or less
> similar to ptxdist conceptually, and IIRC it has support for Docker on
> the target.  Look out for package/docker* in their tree.
>
> Greets
> Alex
>
> [1] https://www.buildroot.org/
Hello everybody and first of all thanks Alexander, indeed I need to be 
able to run docker images on the target.

I don't disagree that docker is overkill for many things, but the 
customer uses docker images for some application distribution and other 
competing platforms supports it.

The mention of buildroot really helped, and to also answer to some 
"answers", that boil down mostly to "why would you need such a 
thing...", we are talking here about an aarch64 platform, with full 
TF-A, OP-TEE, 3GiB RAM and tons of eMMC, that supports natively 
virtualization. A typical docker image for this platform is around 5MiB.

So running docker images there is not some kind of crazy stuff, but it 
is presented like this: "...sure it should work, we use it since years 
since RPi2 devices, have a look...". So the times of Arm 920t or similar 
are coming to an end and will be a great thing if PTXDist will support 
running docker containers in the default rules at least for 64-bit 
architectures.

I, of course, do not suggest to drop everything and integrate docker 
support, but maybe consider it as feature for the near future and not 
black-listed it by default, it's definitely here to stay.

Best regards and a nice and relaxing weekend,

Mircea









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Re: [ptxdist] Docker rules

[Enrico Weigelt, metux IT consult]

On 27.01.22 18:22, Alexander Dahl wrote:
> Hello Mircea,
> 
> On Thu, Jan 27, 2022 at 05:37:01PM +0100, Mircea Ciocan wrote:
>> are there any official or unofficial rules to have docker container support
>> build with PTXDist on aarch64 platforms
> 
> Do you mean running Docker containers on the target?  Or buildung a
> ptxdist based BSP in a Docker container?  AFAIK there's neither one or
> the other.

actually did exactly this (both docker on the target as well as building
docker images via ptxdist) about a year ago ... not sure wether my
patches reached this list ...


--mtx


> 
>> or I have to painfully dissect the
>> Yocto's virtualization layer ?
> 
> If you're looking for inspiration for Docker on the target, you might
> as well checkout the buildroot project [1].  That is more or less
> similar to ptxdist conceptually, and IIRC it has support for Docker on
> the target.  Look out for package/docker* in their tree.
> 
> Greets
> Alex
> 
> [1] https://www.buildroot.org/
> 
> 
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Re: [ptxdist] Docker rules

[Alexander Dahl]

Hallo Enrico,

Am Thu, Mar 17, 2022 at 05:00:57PM +0100 schrieb Enrico Weigelt, metux IT consult:
> On 27.01.22 18:22, Alexander Dahl wrote:
> > Hello Mircea,
> > 
> > On Thu, Jan 27, 2022 at 05:37:01PM +0100, Mircea Ciocan wrote:
> > > are there any official or unofficial rules to have docker container support
> > > build with PTXDist on aarch64 platforms
> > 
> > Do you mean running Docker containers on the target?  Or buildung a
> > ptxdist based BSP in a Docker container?  AFAIK there's neither one or
> > the other.
> 
> actually did exactly this (both docker on the target as well as building
> docker images via ptxdist) about a year ago ... not sure wether my
> patches reached this list ...

Could not find them at https://lore.ptxdist.org/ptxdist/?q=docker …
(also not with different search terms).

Sure you send it?  I could also not find it in my personal archive.

Alex

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